10/31/18 E61 Another Fuel to Maximize the Effects of Keto: Lactate

Eric spends this entire episode trying to say "lactate" as many times as possible...and Chad tries to keep his promise to not make any jokes about it. But, aside from that, they talk about Eric's latest self-experimenting with lactate and how it's not as bad as we've been told.

So what exactly is lactate? And, is it good or bad?

The 3 energy pathways and how to use them.

Science time! Eric rants about pyruvate, mitochondria, cori cycles and more!

"Give me the ABC's"

How we can use lactate as a fuel source in our cells. (And no surprise, its better than glucose!)

Lactate can even increase your BDNF! (Brainpower)

Eric breaks down his current self-testing with fasting and lactate.

And finally, how being in a fasted state can actually increase your energy output!

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Eric: 00:00 Who's going to show more lactate on my blood meter, postworkout or pre? After work out? Nope, you are. Oh, because I'm not utilizing it yet. I'm going to show lower, but I'm actually producing more lactate.

Chad: 00:15 The say a journey begins in a single step or in my case, one less piece of bread. My name is Chad and I'm your test subject. I have sought out an expert in the field of nutrition and fitness. Well, I hoped it helped me feel better. They call him the biohacker, but I call them Eric. I hope you'll join me on a path that leads you and I to optimal fitness as we live our lives in ketosis. This is the life and Ketosis podcast, a biohackers guide to optimal body performance.

Chad: 00:59 Hello everyone. My name is Chad and this is my quest to achieving optimal body performance with the man that can get me there. The biohacker himself. Mr Eric Bischof. Every episode Eric gives us his crazy intense sciencey knowledge and I break it down with my regular non crazy guy take as we explore the principles of ketogenics, kpr performance training. Whether you're just looking for a way to feel better or if you're an elite athlete looking for that edge. We're here to help. And today we're talking about lactate. Lactate. What are, what are, what's lactate? Eric

Eric: 01:35 Lactate. Let me just ask you a quick question first. Yeah. You told me you wanted to switch the format today. Yo, you want to interview me to. I cut you off. Yes I do. In a way because everybody is puzzled about lactate. Right? And now ask you is it good or is it bad? Alright.

Chad: 01:52 Uh, I, I am going to say it's good from the experience or you just get. You're just gambling. No, no, I'm just saying if it's happening in the body naturally then it's a natural good process. Okay. Like homeostasis, you're talking about, you know, your body is going into. It's a biological reaction to something.

Eric: 02:16 So here, the issue now actually some questions that issue about lactate is normally most people I have a passion for lactate and I've been testing my lactate for months and months now. I'm doing all these experiments, which I'm in the middle of one now is, you know, and trying to figure out a way to utilize lactate as a better energy source.

Eric: 02:38 Okay. So in most people think lactate is bad. Okay. Because you end up lactate will build up. Okay. And we'll go into how and why it builds up. But then when lactate builds up in a muscle tissue, you know, through contracting skeleton, muscle, then you have fatigue, you have what we call you and you felt this is you, you are a teacher of insanity class. Right? So that's high intensity. So when you started teaching that class and coaching him, what did you feel? Because that's high intensity. So as you muscles adapted, and I'm going to say you lactate adapted. Okay. Alright. Well how did you start out when you were coaching now? Did you get fatigue? What were you trying to get stronger? What, what, what happened with you when you're actually teaching?

Chad: 03:29 Um, well I got um, I mean maybe it's more valuable to talk about my experience when I started doing it at the beginning. Well, because I was, I was doing hiit stuff probably two years before I started teaching it, get so, um, but obviously, I mean I felt burned. I felt a lot of burn, a lot of fatigue. Yeah. I mean I would walk out of those classes barely walking with my legs just shaking. I'm like, you're ready to drop. Yeah, absolutely. And, and you know, the context that I've always heard people talk about a lactate or lactic acid. Got It. Right. It was a lot of these hiit teachers and I think they were just repeating what they had heard. Right. None of them were really. health scientists are exactly, you know, or anything like that, but they did. Everything was like, you got to go home and massage and ice that kind of stuff so that you can break down the lactic acid, get it out of your muscle. And so that's, that was my introduction to this idea of lactate or lactic right.

Eric: 04:38 Being a negative thing too.

Chad: 04:40 Oh, for sure. Yeah. Okay. Something that you needed to get rid of in order to be recuperated for your next workout.

Eric: 04:47 Exactly. Okay. So what, what I've been experimenting with and right in the middle line and now I'm on a, as you know, I'm on a five day on my fifth day today, have a seven and a half day water fast. So, and I've been training hard every morning. Okay. And I've been testing my lactate, my blood glucose and my Beta. Alright. So. And I'm in a fasted state. Alright. So what I'm trying to figure out and through my experiments and I've done before is to say what major role does lactate play. Okay. And performance because we all know there's lactate, we all know there's a lactate threshold and coaches coach by it and they, you know, the more that we can increase your lactate threshold, the more energy production we're going to get out of you. Okay? So when you became lactate adapt in obviously. All right, you were able to increase your output for a longer time. Alright. And the only reason you're, you, you'll need lactate or need anything you. It depends on how much energy you need to produce. So what's your requirement of ATP production? Alright, bottom line. I mean, if you're moving really slow, you're kind of at an endurance pace, then obviously your ATP production's not needed so much, but in a hit class or an in my training, then we're pushing the ATP production. So how do we do that? Remember those three energy pathways that we talked about in, you know, we've talked about them a few times. We have those. We have the Phospho creatine pathway. That's that energy, the ATP and the creatine phosphate that's sitting in your cycle though. Just ready to go. It doesn't take any auction. Does take any fuel, doesn't take glycogen, glucose, nothing. It's ATP. It's already there. So when you first started your hiit class, just like I do on the trainer here hitting you, start, you tap into that energy pathway first. Then after a little bit you can re because remember there's atp there, but then there's more creatine phosphate, a very five or six times as much as the ATP. And remember when you use that as a muscle contraction, got your, your fast hit five, 10, 20 second. Okay. Will you run out of ATP? So the ATP breaks to ADP, grabs a phosphate, creating donates that phosphate to it to make it ATP. So that's your cycle there and sooner or later it gets down to a certain percentage, you're not going to be able to produce anymore. Okay? Then you've got to jump into another pathway. That's an anaerobic glycolysis. Okay. Remember? No oxygen in the side is all right. Now we're turning into something to make lactate. Alright. So this is where you spent a good time of your hiit class. Not all of it. No, but guaranteed.

Eric: 07:26 You are in the, what we call the anaerobic glycolysis, lactate production. And you remember to get lactate, we got to bring in glucose. Alright. Obviously then we convert that, break that down to two Pi, route eight, and then we actually reduced that to lactate because it's going to actually, um, when it reduces to. It's going to give up an electron molecule. So either from Nadh and Nad plus, which I won't go into. So it's reduced to lactate there your, there's the lactate production. All right. So now we're experiencing some good energy production. And how long can you go on lactate? Do you remember? No, no, it's long. It's not long. The reason being is how much atp net do you get from when you go? Remember, we don't have oxygen, so when you go on that with no oxygen, you only can get to atp out of that. But remember the next pathway is the oxidative phosphorylation when you go into the Mitochondria, and we're going to get to this because it's what's cool about lactate when we get into Mitochondria that Piru vate can make a choice. It has three play it, it can say, hey, I can commit to alright to cellular respiration in the Mitochondria or I could commit to lactate or I can commit to a third is the pentose phosphate pathway. But so Piru Bay is the precursor to this. Alright? But when it goes to lactate and you're really, you're. I mean you're, you're in anaerobic. Okay? You're only going to get two ATP. But if it did get to go into the Mitochondria to produce energy, how much you're going to get? Thirty two. So what's, what's more productive? Obviously the Mitochondria. But remember what, what takes, what do you have to have in the Mitochondria to produce ATP? Oxygen.

Eric: 09:19 But when you're an anaerobic you don't have any oxygen. Yeah. So now you're stuck with lactate. Alright. So that's what's exciting about lactate is because we're learning now there's more to lactate then we what we used to think it used to be basically, and I believe in, in, in this hypothesis of the lactate shuttle we call it. I really do believe in because I got all the research papers and remember everything is a hypothesis basically. But through self experimentation that I'm working on, I'm actually making that research and those studies that I've been on, actually I'm believing in the hypothesis I, I'm accepting it. Okay. So what's exciting about lactic? The original is Cori Cycle. We've talked about it. So when you're producing the core cycle will actually take that lactate. It's got to come out. You've got to clear it. All right? It'll actually go to the liver. Okay. So you got it going to the liver. Okay. Lactate. The liver actually through Gluconeogenesis will change the conversion of that back to Piru. Okay. Back to glucose, send it back to that muscle sale, but you're only gonna you're gonna. Come back with two ATP. So the liver to do that. And we said before it takes six ATP to do that require. Because remember when you change the, the reverse of it, it takes energy to do that. But the Cori cycle comes back. You got your, your, your glucose molecule back to pyruvate to ATP, to lactate. There it goes. So obviously if you're going to do 32 and ATP, how many times are you going to do this cycle? 16 Times. So you're going to run out. So what's exciting about this, the lactate shuttle, and I'm finally getting to it a little bit, is before we always think of as lactic acid, okay? Because you do get a burn. Okay? You do get fatigue, but that's actually the ATP breaking down its energy source, delivering a Proton of hydrogen ion. That's the studies and everything that I, I've been. I mean I taught cycling class and I, you know, for years I yell, let's clear those hydrogen ions, you know, cause I wouldn't. While the word lactic acid and how many,

Chad: 11:26 how many people would roll their eyes?

Eric: 11:28 They always roll their eyes. In fact like I was going to ask you, when you're in a lactate producing, all right? Obviously you're in Anaerobic, so your oxygen, your vo2 that you're breathing in, it's going to be very high. All right, so that's how you could tell unless you got your heart rate monitor on. Then you know they all work together. More lactate. You produce, you got your vo two because you're really breathing hard. Now. You can't carry a conversation. For years I would yell out to my, my writers and my class just if it was you, I would say, hey, give me the abcs and we're in a high intensity, really crushing ride. I could tell by their abcs how often they broke. They go a, b, c, d, e, F, g, H, but if they're going a, b, c, d boom, they're not pushing it. And I have their heart rates on the wall. So I'm, I'm monitoring. So I just pick on people. If they're running a little low heart rate, but they're trying to pretend they're really kicking button the class, I make them call me the ABC's out and then all sudden they're just going to ABCD and whatever. But anyway, so that's all vo2, heart rate and lactate. All right. So now did you wear a heart rate monitor when you were teaching her? No. Oh, you did. So you were monitoring that?

Chad: 12:38 Yeah, not as much when I was teaching because I was more focused on the people in the class and helping them correct their form and running around and you know, but when I was actually, I was monitoring it really closely when I was a participant in the class.

Eric: 12:51 Oh you are? Okay. And so what's exciting about lactate is it's not a poison, it's, it's not the bad thing. Sure. Hydrogen Ions, but as you train and become efficient, the object is to clear it. All right. Remove it. And what we're finding out, and this has been studied for years, but people aren't really latching onto it, is lactate is anaerobic, but through removal and clearance you can move it into the Mitochondria and use it as a fuel oxidative phosphorylation. So now lactate doesn't just have to go out to the Cori Cycle. You can actually go from cell to cell. All right? With the lactate or go intracellular meaning from the Cytosol into the Mitochondria.

Chad: 13:38 So how do we move it into the Mitochondria?

Eric: 13:40 Good question. Because I, I didn't, I didn't come with a switch, right? There's two things. You obviously need a mano carboxylase transporters. Oh yeah, I have so many of them. Okay. But we'll just take our rubric transporters. You obviously have to have transporters. Memory, just like, like glucose. Alright, what happens? Insulin gets to the cell. Alright. You have group for their insulin gets to sugar. It gets the glucose to the cell Hoot for is the door basically. All right, so it's got to come in, pass them the cellular membrane. What does that hexcel kindness. Hexcel kind of says, hey, we need it. Bring it in. But it's by directional. Same thing with lactate. It can hexcel kinase can push that out. The gradient is too high, it could push the glucose back out, but once it comes in and then hexokinase brings it in, and then uh, uh, glucose, six phosphate will actually be. It's committed. Now, once that glucose molecule, it's committed, and then all of a sudden it says, hey, it's either going to go for glycogen storage, which one or it's going to go into a pentose phosphate pathway, or it can actually go for glycolysis, which you go to Piru Vedanta, Mitochondria for energy. So there's some, there's some pathways there. So with lactate, you have the same thing. You've got these transporters that are on the membranes. I mean, all cells have lactate, okay? A red blood cells, uh, the brain, the astrocytes, which we'll talk about, they all have these transporters. So here's the key about the lactate shuttle is you've got to be trained enough and established enough cause you did over the years of, through high intensity, because that's the only place you're going to create that lactate.

Eric: 15:20 So you've got to have the the transporters on the membranes to take it in, to be utilized in the Mitochondria. So there's your transport, but as you train harder and harder, the exciting part about it with your mitochondrial biogenesis, you're going to create more mitochondria is what we want, and you're going to create more transporters so you're actually, you can get up to double the amount of this. And that's what I'm all key on in my training and my coaching and in our podcast is Mitochondria. So if we can double your Mitochondria, double the transporters. Now we're dealing with lactate now. But lactate can be a fuel for oxidative phosphorylation. With oxygen, lactate can become a fuel. Most time we think, nope, it's a waste product. It's gone. You know, the lactic acid will clear out, hydrogen ions will clear out it's gone. Unless you cori cycle to the point where you have to go into, you know you're going to fatigue out. So obviously you're going to go into Mitochondria and you use all those pathways kind of interchangeably. You know, it's not like one at a time, boom, boom, boom. It actually gets used together and so what's exciting about lactate? It's, it's not, it's all, it's an energy molecule. Okay? Now the thing, it's a precursor to gluconeogenesis. All right? And then it's also a signaling molecule, so it really has three big purposes and people don't realize that. They just think it's energy when you're in anaerobic and you're going to create it and you got to get rid of it and clear it, but actually does those three things. And it's always been it. Most people know that it's a precursor to um, gluconeogenesis. So when you're short on glucose, cortisol kicks in or whatever. Like me, I am totally depleted on glycogen. I mean, I've been working out on this self experiment every morning. I do a 30 minute hiit at a 95 to 100 percent heart rate, mostly 98 percent average. So I am forcing chad all the glycogen out of my body to say, hey, how, how am I producing lactate? Because remember carbohydrate. All right, you're going to get glucose, correct? Right. Which makes [inaudible]. They used to think it was my roommate. That was the only thing that could go into the Mitochondria. Okay. Oxidative phosphorylation to be used as a fuel to create and produce ATP, but now we're understanding that lactate can go into the Mitochondria and be used to produce ATP. So what I'm trying to figure out is, and you think about it, when I'm training hard as I am, I'm going to use all my glycogen. My liver glycogen is gone. All right? I do have some muscle glycogen, but I'm depleting that to my workout. So the question is, and I have blood glucose, but I'm not eating any dietary glucose, no dietary carbs, no dietary fat, nothing. So where would I be getting my energy from to produce at a high rate on the trainer and my throwdowns? Where would you guess I be getting my energy from?

Chad: 18:22 Well, it's going to be the lactate.

Eric: 18:24 That'd be lactate, but I have no. I'm depleting glycogen, which is a precursor to lactate. Oh, I see. Because in the sale when you're at a high rate like your anaerobic you, you're not going to take dietary glucose because it's too long to get into the cell. And work and eat it right there. So glycogen is there to provide that. So I'm depleting my glycogen in my liver because my liver is my backup. All right. It says, Hey, you need some glucose to keep producing whatever you're doing because you're fasting. You're not getting any incoming dietary glucose. So I'm trying to figure out like, okay, when I, when I start like this morning, if I started my workout when I woke, I started my workout by blood sugar was 66. Okay. I thought, okay, I still got blood sugar. Obviously my body's producing some glucose. I have glycerol, I have acetone. That's right. And then my lactate was one point three millimolar. And so some people don't even realize that you produce lactate all day long, Chad, you, most of us think you have to be in anaerobic or high intensity to produce lactate. But I was at one point three millimolar when I woke up and I'd take my average every morning. I'm always between one point zero to one point eight. I've been two point six. I'm like, wow, am I producing lactate through the night? What's, what's. Why? Is there a need for it?

Eric: 19:49 So I'm still trying to figure all that out. But anyway. And, and my ketones were a shrew, three point seven. So now I have three energy sources. All right. So when I did my 30 minute hit, but the throwdown I crushed it to get all the glycogen more out because I've been on this five days and so I'm like, but then afterwards, you know, when, when it's postworkout right away, as soon as I'm done I test my blood markers again and obviously my ketones, they dropped to two point seven. So I must be using some Beta for energy. And then my blood sugar stayed the same. Like how is that? I mean, yeah, my blood sugars the same. You would think glucose somehow would be being utilized as a fuel source. Okay. And then my um, lactate went from one point two to five point eight. So what, where do we produce lactate from glycogen. Yeah. And I'm like, alright, my glad because she was pretty well depleted. So how I'm producing so much lactate, so obviously I'm getting it from has to be coming from my glycerol and creating a lot of fatty acids to the liver to make ketones and remember that glycerol backbone to the three triglycerides. That's a fuel source for glucose, acetone, another ketones as a fuel source for glucose. So it's really interesting. I know I'm getting long here, but it just interested in and say, Hey, I am producing lactate. I should all these workouts I'm doing and note and fashioning my glycogens gone even in when you're in just regular Ketosis, your liver is probably half of the glycogen. You have 100 grams. It's probably always operating at about half because you're not eating a lot of carbs to store the glycogen. So it's kind of interesting to do work on this experiment to say, Hey, I am. I really believe I am actually adapting my body to be able to clear that lactate, utilize it in the Mitochondria to help me take up some of that high intensity and my Beta, which I've been working on and fatty acids from the intermuscular fat to be as a fuel in that muscle cell. So it's kind of my passion, a mission. I've been onto Teta. Make sure I can bring all of these centers you substrates together with little long chapter, but you're fine.

Chad: 22:04 You made me promise that to not tell any lactating jokes. That's right, but not that kind of lactate. There's probably four or five places right there in that last conversation where I just really wanted to break in with the breastfeeding joke, but I won't. I resisted no prolactin and everything else. I was just gonna say. I was just going to say if you're creating lactate and you don't know why, you should probably go get that checked out for multiple reasons.

Eric: 22:37 If you're creating lactate because of anaerobic situations and utilize it and you're all good, but you know, we, we've always known for the brain that lactates of fuel for the brain. Right. So when I, when I actually ran my lactate up to five points. Eight, what was that? What I say? I can't remember. Um, yeah, five point eight millimole. Okay. We know, we know. Basically at rest you have one point average. One point. Oh, millimoles of lactate. Alright. So at rest, how much do you have of glucose? About four and a half to five millimole. That's pretty average. Okay. So we have way more a glucose available to the brain than we do. Obviously lactate cause you know the middle of all. Alright. So we know that the brain glucose, the brain is really dependent on glucose. We, we all know that unless you're ketosis, okay then it's going to use beta. But on average people that brain wants its glucose. But we now know with lactate at one millimole can give up to 10, 12 percent energy to the brain. All right? But what's exciting about lactate besides the Astro Neuron lactate shuttle, which we'll talk about just for a quick second, is that to exercise what I'm doing, you know, some of the higher intensity stuff to increase the lactate, you can actually increase the energy of lactate to the brain up to 25 percent. So I'm trying to say how I feel after I really produced the lactate. I've been as high as 15 millimoles on lactate with other types of high intensity workouts. Um, but what's exciting about lactate, once you learn to clear it and utilize it as a fuel source, you get more power output. Alright. With lower lactate readings. So if I put you on the trainer that I've been doing my workouts, who's going to produce more lactate?

Eric: 24:31 I'll give you that exact 30 minute workout. You haven't been on that trainer. I'm trained on it. All right. Who's going to produce more lactate on that? Would you say you. I think. Okay, write me who's going to show more lactate on my blood meter postworkout or pre workout after workout user? Nope. You are. Oh, because I'm not utilizing that. Who likes it? I'm going to show lower, but I'm actually producing more lactate. Okay. Right. But I'm utilizing it and I'm getting more positive. Original source. Right. And then afterwards, my lactase not going to be so high. You're not conditioned enough. Alright. Because it's a new muscle group and you're not adapted to it. You're actually going to be showing really high, but as far as power output, who's going to be putting more out?

Chad: 25:16 Wait, wait, is this your way of telling me I'm looking a little doughy?

Eric: 25:23 But its power output produce way more than you and they've done cyclists as 22 cyclists. They done pros against just healthy young men that are, you know, cycling and I think the pros were double the wattage obviously because they're trained and performance enhancing performance and they'll. Yeah, no cyclists are not the group that they. The key exciting that lactate is. If you can utilize it, clear it. Now we can shuttle it into other sales, your heart, your brain, your liver. They all love lactate and they can actually prefer lactate as a fuel over glucose. I'm not going to say over Beta because the transport is what happens on those transporters. If it's all all of one, it could block the other. Okay. So basically we have a mixture. So now I have Beta in the mix, so I'm trying to figure out how the science of the Beta with lactate and glucose and besides lactate it, it does. You know, we talked about the astrocyte neuron, lactate shuttle. We've always known and, and studies show that the astrocytes like it and they will actually convert a through the pipe. We wait too long to lactate and they're right next to neurons. So you have way more astrocytes and neurons. You actually deliver. It delivers that lactate to the neuron. All right, so now the neuron doesn't have to use any ATP to take Piru vate to lactate. It has it right there and so it can utilize it as an energy source. So is that a protective mechanism? It's an enhancement. I don't know. I don't think anybody knows, but I know the more lactate I seem to produce my cognitive after seems to be really good. I used to say it was all Beta, but I'm sure it is too, but my cognitive is good. So I'm actually, where's this lactate clearing to? I mean I had five point eight millimole, but I've been at 12 and 15. I mean all different times. Depends on how hard I'm pushing, how long. So obviously it's clearing to something I'm not, it's not a waste product and my body's utilizing it and the more adapted we become, the better we utilize it.

Chad: 27:36 Yeah. So you're um, you're saying, let me be clear here that lactate is a good energy substrate but it's not, it cannot replace Beta works with. It works. It works with it.

Eric: 27:49 See Beta we have all day long. Okay. Yeah. I don't have to, I don't have to work out and do something for 20, 30, 40 or you know, you're only gonna use lactate so long because sooner or later you have to, you have to resort to the Mitochondria from oxidative phosphorylation. Alright. Which we could be [inaudible] could be fatty acids, could be Aminos. What we don't use that very much, but I'm saying if you condition your lactate, maybe the lactate can get into the Mitochondria and still push you at a higher intensity so you can go and I, and I've been trained this way and that's why I did that. Spartan totally glycogen depleted to say, Hey, there's something here. If your glycogen is low, if you get adapted muscle adapted and fuel a deputy, you can use lactate and Beta at a higher intensity, not always 65 or 75 percent. Right? And now I'm on this lactate mission to add that to the mix to get a higher performance, higher power out put all right, without just constantly dropping to that [inaudible] to the Mitochondria, which drops you down in as far as your output. So.

Chad: 28:55 Okay. Alright. So in this conversation, this has been interesting where we are at a high risk of talking very sciencey and philosophical and not bringing it down to, okay, what does this mean for me? Right? What does this mean for a Keto Joe, who you know is, is working out, getting in shape is keto. All of that kind of stuff. How, how do they start to, um, use or, or are they, are they already utilizing this lactate and, and how do they know? And if, if they're not, how do we take more advantage of this?

Eric: 29:35 And, and I apologize because remember I'm on my fifth day of fast. No, no apology needed care. The sciences cognitive. In fact, my wife says, you know, you're a little too chatty. Why don't you go eat some glucose? It's amazing when you're on your fifth day, sixth slash seventh day, your cognitive really gets enhanced and it's kind of amazing thing. But anyway, just to bring it down a in producing lactate and a lot of people are doing high intensity workouts out there and I push it with, with all all my clients. And so what we're trying to do, say, hey, if we can bring lactate in to be a better energy source or hey, don't fear it as being like a poison or something bad or waste product that you want to clear out as fast as you can. We want to manipulate it to where we can lactate shuttle. Get it to be a signaling molecule and get it to be that energy substrate goes cell to cell or intracellular to where you utilize it as a fuel source and you actually get better. So your mitochondria constantly, he's going to get that energy from lactate because we're all about getting. We have to get energy substrate to the Mitochondria to create ATP. Most people have dysfunctional Mitochondria, especially in is just take, um, a Alzheimer's and amyloid Beta plaque it. That's what hinders glucose to get to the Mitochondria. Okay? But now if we have lactate getting into the Mitochondria, you have Beta getting into the Mitochondria. What happens to you, your Mitochondria. It becomes more functional. Your memory increases, your cognitive cognition increases. So that's the exciting part about it is just saying, hey, if we can add another fuel source to our mitochondria to make it more functional and through lactate production because you're at a higher rate, you can double your Mitochondria. Now we have more Mitochondria. You increase your electric transport chains, which means what one mitochondria can up to hundreds electron transport chains, which means you're going to create more ATP. And there's more electron transport change to have less free radicals so you have more of a to take the load and not back up with electrons. So that's what's exciting about lactate. And one other thing about lactate, there's lots of things about lactate is the bdnf. You know, I've talked about that neurotrophic factor, whole podcasts on it. Lactate increases your bdnf. And so through studies, here we go, we have another plus more bdnf, more neurogenesis, synaptic, genesis, neuro, regeneration of protection. Here we go, we have more bdnf through lacking. It's another product. There's a lot in tmi, um, traumatic, a Tbi, a traumatic brain injury, lots of exciting things with lactate there, you know, they utilize it in emergency hospitals, concussions, a lot of things going with lactate there. Um, so there's many, many avenues for, for, for lactate that we could talk about for a long time. So if the threshold is what the lactate threshold, so as you get better, and in those out there that are training and high intensity, you always heard the coaches and everyone wants you to lactate threshold higher. I want you vo2 threshold higher. I want, uh, um, your activity as far as, you know, in, in, in production, we want to increase these thresholds, which means you're going to utilize it more. So basically it's all about lactate threshold, bringing it up. It's necessary.

Chad: 33:11 Great. So, um, just by, by way of information for people, so to be able to utilize some of the science that you're talking about and having more of a complete energy, a picture going into the Mitochondria, we talk about these hit workouts or high intensity training, a interval training, so hit if you don't know what that is. Basically what we're talking about is it's a, it's a push rest cycle is what we're looking at. So I've seen all kinds of different interval times, um, but it's basically you're pushing your heart to a certain percentage within a certain amount of time and then you're watching your drop and you're taking your heart rate down to a certain recovery or recovery level and then taking it right back up and, and the, you know, the amount of times that you go through that cycle can vary. How long those cycles are can vary. You'll get better, you'll get longer, all of that kind of stuff, you'll, you'll, you'll get stronger. So that's what we were talking about when we talk about hiit workouts. Just to be clear, if anybody's listening that doesn't understand what, what a hiit workout is. So to bring this to take advantage of the science that you're talking about. I'm obviously being in Ketosis is a huge help. Um, but then in addition to that is regular hiit workouts. Yes. A monitoring your peak or monitoring your peak heart rate monitoring your rest heart rate and your how quick, how quickly you drop into your recovery heart rates. Yeah, I didn't mean rest. Heart. Wait, sorry. Um, so I just want to make sure that those are clear. Is there anything else people should know just day to day, not science, but day to day of how, what they should do to take advantage of the benefits that you've seen,

Eric: 34:52 what you need to know. Like on this a seven day fast, I'm doing an , a 30 minute no rest, 98 percent heart rate to 100 or over. Okay. Complete intensity for 30 minutes. And I am, you don't want hiits, aren't to be done all. It depends what kind of condition you're in. So every other day, a good hiit workout. I do those 10 minute, 12 minute throw downs and I can knock out 11 millimole of lactate for sure. I'm using my arms, my legs, that treadmill because I'm doing interval sprints, show, I'm utilizing more muscles and I'm producing more lactate and more muscles on the bike there. Obviously it's just quads and calves. Okay. My glutes too, right? So that's. So you have to incorporate the higher intensity. Even Cardio Rehab centers are bringing in high intensity because if they increase your vo two, okay, then obviously they're going to increase your blood output and capillaries. Vascularity. Everything starts to increase. You're going to get more oxygen because that's, that's the issue. We're not getting enough oxygen to keep it going. All right? Obviously we're in anaerobic. But if you can keep, get stronger oxygen, then you're going to have more production. And I, I do the, the breath, uh, training and I probably haven't shared. I don't share it with a lot of people, but I'm going to start training people with. I've been working on it for a long time. So like today when I did, did my um, uh, my, my hiit, alright, I basically today I stayed out. I stayed probably a 52 breaths per minute. I count them, I'm counting on my breaths every 30 seconds I counted and I take a break. Counted again. I sometimes I'll train it at 46 and then there's times I'll go in the sixties when I'm really pushing above 100 percent heart rate. And so that's one way of calculating. You know, if you, if you can't have a conversation then you know, you're probably in lactate. If you're just, you can't say a sentence, you already see a few words down. But I do it by breath count because then then I know if I met a 23 breath count and I probably know I'm at about a 92 percent heart rate. If I jumped up to 26, I know where I'm at. I've jumped up to 30, which is 60 per minute a do, 30 second counts. Um, then I know I'm over 100 percent. So as I get stronger, my breathing comes down, my lactate is getting utilized in my power output goes up. Yeah. I'm just Kinda mark everything and track everything. So yeah. But I'm excited because lactate, oh, you know, I always say, you know, fat is your friend will lactate if you learn how to utilize it and through the lactate shuttle it, it's definitely your friend. Definitely something to achieve to utilize it and get, you know, there's a lot of competitors out there and not just for competitors, for, for people that are in Rehab, people would just want more energy. You're going to make your mitochondria more and stronger. Yeah.

Chad: 37:56 Yeah. I think it's important here that we just mentioned really quick. If you're listening to this and thinking about jumping into some hiit training, just consult your doctor first. Make sure you make sure we're good. Um, and, and that's on a personal level. So I just want to put that out there and make sure you're starting at a level that is customized to you and so having a coach involved, having some sort of set program for you so that they can take an account. You're, you're, you're a physical condition now and um, and what you should be able to handle

Eric: 38:30 for sure. don't leave out your aerobic base. I'm an endurance athletes, so trust me, I have my role, but base, I had my long runs, my long rides. Still, you're going to produce mitochondria that way to you. You're not going to be in the lactate situation because you're going to be, you know, obviously in the Mitochondria with oxygen using high hope, mostly fatty acids. Then Piru vague, but don't forget your card because every, every coach, everybody will get you a base and then you got to keep that going. And then to get faster and more powerful, you got to bring in the higher intensity stuff. You got to get the threshold gotta, get lactate being utilized better, bottom line and clear those hydrogen ions. Those are what's obviously caught causing you some pain. That's the acidic lactate is an asset. Hydrogen ions are very acidic, so that's what gives you the burn. Great. There's always, there's always, you know, there's always challenges with the lactate and the lactic acid and the studies are still out there, so you've got to dig in it and see what you, what you believe and see. And then like I always do self experiment and make it work.

Chad: 39:37 Yeah. One, one more thing to mention before we close this up is I've been, I've been really fascinated recently studying our evolutionary ancestors and because a lot of the way that they lived for tens of thousands of years, hundreds of thousands of years, it kind of or not kind of. It definitely relates to how our bodies function now, right? We talked a little bit about this when we were doing the review of the movie. Um, and uh, it's, it's interesting to think about how those hunters, um, worked aerobics, right? Or, or even hit wise. So when you're tracking, when you're tracking your, your prey. Yeah. There's times where you've got a sprint and then you've got to bring it down. Right? And so our bodies are our quickly, they adapt really well to that type of exercise because ancestrally that's what our bodies were built to do, run, run, run, run, run, rest, rest. And it's spurts of that, of that. Exactly. Exerted energy. And so we just, I just have been fascinated to look at it. What got me on this kick was reading the book sapiens and it's, it's an awesome condensed history of sapiens basically. And it's really put a lot of this stuff in that framework of well why? Why are our bodies, why have our bodies evolved in this way and operate this? And it's so clear to me that this again is just another pointing to, you know, being those hunters for thousands of years.

Eric: 41:19 And I thought you brought up and being in a fasted state on their hunts because obviously they're looking for food. Today. I'm on my fifth day of fast. I'm going seven and a half. And even my wife, she, she heard me. She goes, wow, you really pushing that trainer. And today I, I beat my yesterday's time or the other two times by a minute and 32 seconds I had power. Today I'm on my fifth day of fasting. And you're like, wow. And I know when I really have power because I get goosebumps. I don't know why. I know if I'm in a race, all of a sudden I have energy where it's coming from. I get goosebumps. And today I got goosebumps. I'm like, Whoa, I'm throwing down. And it was amazing. And the fifth day fast with no dietary, anything fat, nothing, just water. Okay. Then I was able to produce stronger than a few days ago. So it's kind of exciting. And I am doing tomorrow and do it on the seventh day, seven days and I'm document all my blood markers and everything and I go to the blood lab Monday morning to get all my other lipids and everything else done. So I'm kinda excited to put this experiment together to say, Hey, lactate is real. Yeah, for sure. We already know Beta is real and we know glucose can do what it can do, but we want that glycogen to convert to lactate and make it work.

Chad: 42:37 Absolutely. Well, thanks for biohacking with us today Eric

Eric: 42:40 I appreciate it. I hope I made sense of it.

Chad: 42:44 Totally. Absolutely. Okay. Also, before we close, I want to talk about fasted state. We have another session of fasted state coming up in November. Our fasting dates or 14th, 15th and 16th. If you've been listening to the podcast at all, you already have heard this information. If you haven't gone in, signed up yet, why haven't you gone and signed up yet? Come fast with us. We're only taking 20 people in this session. It's not quite full yet, but go to Biofitcoaching.com/fast. There. You can get testimonials from other people who have gone through fasted state. You can get a little bit of information from Eric and ultimately sign up for this fast. We've got coming up right before Thanksgiving so we can shed some pounds. We can exercise some self mastery and we can take advantage of all that Beta that's available to us in and most importantly, Eric, autophagy.

Eric: 43:36 I can see you better leave that out, but I'm actually, I'm on the seven half day fast, but I will be fasting with the group for three days and I'm not gonna now. Easy, easy, but now I, I always appreciate fasting. I really do. And we'll talk all about that in our videos and everything

Chad: 43:55 and we do it as a group and that's the best feedback we got from our first session of fasted state was we do a live q and a every single day of the fast and where you can ask questions, Eric will answer there on the spot and we just give each other encouragement and it's, it's a totally different experience when you're doing it with a group of people than trying to push through it alone.

Eric: 44:16 Yeah. And it's exciting to work together. In fact, I, uh, eve, one of the biofitters, she's going to do a five day fast. So I'm really excited. She committed to it today. To them it's I, I, she said seven or five and I said let's do five, 5:30, but she's going to be training it like what I'm doing. She has a lot of things coming her way and if she doesn't know about, but she's very well trained athlete, triathlete so I can push her a little bit, but no, I have others that are fasting all the time, all the time. And they, they love it. Chad. They feel so good and I won't go into this. Yeah, we're good.

Chad: 44:50 Yeah, absolutely. Well, um, join us for fasted state. We would love to have you leave biofitcoaching.com/fast. And I also want to thank you for joining us on this quest for optimal optimal fitness. If you're ready to begin your own journey and live your life and Ketosis, be sure to check out biofitcoaching.Com or biofit coaching on instagram. That handle is @biofit_coaching. Also, if this podcast has helped you in any way entertained you, we encourage you to go to itunes or wherever you get your podcast. Leave us a five star review, leave us a five star rating rather than a review that helps us reach more people, grow this community, and the greatest compliment that you can give us is sharing this podcast with your friends and family, the ones who need it the most, the ones that want a different way of life. And until next time, stay keto.