03/13/19 E80 Key to Building Muscle on Keto

Ok, stop me if you've heard this before: You can't build muscle on keto. This myth is pervasive enough that Eric regularly gets questions about it. So today he wanted to talk about some evidence, both scientific and anecdotal, to put this issue to rest.

Why does this question keep coming up?

For ATP production, is all fuel created equal?

All about them electrons!

How dysfunctional mitochondria is the root of most health issues.

Beta and it's relationship with leucine.

Eric's experiment: Fasting and muscle mass.

What's the truth about gluconeogenesis?

How about keto and endurance? And can keto make you faster?

Are you talking yourself into being weaker?

And finally, how many grams of protein should you be getting on keto?

Autophagy, more beta, and feeling great! It's time for you to do a multi-day fast! Go to biofitcoaching.com/fast to reserve your spot for fasted state!

In this episode, Chad talks about how bioStak works in the background to just keep everything going. Do yourself right! Go to bioStak.com now.

And as always, if you have any questions on this episode (or any questions in general) don’t hesitate to reach out to us at bioteam@biofitcoaching.com, or submit a question on www.lifeinketosispodcast.com

And if you’re interested in starting your own journey, you can find out more information at biofitcoaching.com or on Instagram @biofit_coaching


Eric: 00:00 People build muscle on keto and they're like, wow, I'm not even taking the protein that I used to take in. I used to take in 150-160 grams. Now I'm down to 90

Chad: 00:10 They say a journey begins in a single step or in my case, one last piece of bread.

Chad: 00:20 My name is Chad and I'm a seeker. I have sought out an expert in the field of nutrition and fitness who I hoped would help me feel better. They call him the biohacker, but I call him Eric. I hope you'll join me in a path that leads you and I to optimal fitness of the body and the mind as we live our life in ketosis. This is the life and Ketosis podcast, a biohackers guide to optimal body performance.

Chad: 00:53 Hello everyone. My name is Chad and this is my quest to achieving the healthy state of being with a man that can get me there. My mentor and cohost, here's the science to my regular guide, the extreme testing to my, I'll take your word for it. The biohacker himself, Mr Eric Bischof. Somewhere along this journey of ours, I realized that feeling better is really one part physical and one part mental and both are needed to achieve the optimal state of being what I call keto happiness or ketosiness. Today we're talking about a subject, Eric, that we've gotten a lot of questions on. Uh, it seems like this question kind of cycles pretty much every other week or so. And um, that is the topic of building muscle on keto. Uh, there's a lot of misinformation out there, there's a lot of assumptions and we want to help clarify some of that.

Chad: 01:45 So, uh, we're going to talk about building muscle today while on keto. And before we do that, Eric, how are you doing? Good. I'm doing pretty good. How about you? I'm great. You've been building some muscle yourself. Yeah. And that's what it was that a spoiler. I didn't mean to come right out at the beginning.

Eric: 02:04 Hey, I'm build muscle. I'm building old man muscle. Okay. It's okay. You know, and it's, it's about building muscle, but it's also about muscle performance. Okay. Cause we're all not bill. I mean we're all repairing. Okay. We're all repairing of recovery and we're all trying to perform at a better level or higher level if you're in competition. But it's all about, uh, get into the muscle and there is a lot of misconceptions.

Chad: 02:35 So tell me this why is, why does it seem like there is so many people questioning whether or not you can actually build muscle on keto? Like why, why is there this idea out there that um, yeah, I, I just don't, I guess I'm not understanding why this is a life that never, that thought never crossed my mind. I'm like, yeah, I'll do keto, but can I build muscle on it? Do you, do you have an understanding of why people might be wondering?

Eric: 03:02 It's there and it's real and I get it all the time. And even those, you know, I've coached over a hundred hundreds of athletes. Okay. And it's always been an issue. Like we've been taught protein, protein, protein. Okay. So for repair, for recovery to build. All right, we've been taught Maltodextrin, add some glucose, raise your insulin as you do it, you know, incidents anabolics so we were constantly getting fed with this and bodybuilding. I've been in bodybuilding in the late seventies, and I, I down to everything from regurgitated, um, uh, basically from a bird. It was a protein that was actually read gurgitate it and it, so that was in the 70. So if we didn't have a lot of protein drinks and things like that, we were just doing whatever we can, you know, raw eggs and everything else. But it's there and it is an issue. But bottom line is, so when I have to do and, and is, so what is the issue to everybody's talking about this muscle sparing muscle, losing muscle building. So we got to get to the in, you got to get to the root cause of what is at the, this information, this misconception, why is there even a debate? And so what, what, how I feel about and what, what I, when I talk about is basically it comes down to a couple things and we'll get through this real fast. It all comes down to a tee pee energy production. So we've got two things. We got energy production, ATP that's being done in the cell, the cytoplasm. Okay. Then inside that cell, we also have my favorite, the Mitochondria. There's a nucleus there and everything else, but the Mitochondria. So we have number two production of ATP in the Mitochondria. Bottom line, everything is a result of ATP energy production. Okay? So we can have these two sources. They we can work together at the same time to give you energy, ATP, or they can be separate at certain times or they can be at different ratios. All right? So we have to organize, you know, what percentage of we're getting ATP from the cell, the Cytoplasm, glycolysis, or from the Mitochondria. So battling, what do we meet Chad to produce this ATP it. Remember no ATP and real life, no mitochondria, nothing. Everything is dependent on what we got to do to get this ATP. All right? So to get that production, what do we need to make nervous? I'm nervous now. After a year and a half, I'm hearing this and on time I would, I would assume we'd need to be fat adapted and get fat. Okay. Bottom line, you're, you're almost all the way there.

Eric: 05:41 We need food. We just feel okay, but that's an energy substrate, but it's all fuel created equal. No, no. Oc obviously for ATP production. Okay. No, I'm not, I'm not. I'm talking macros, protein, carbs and fat less. I'm not going to go down the rabbit hole of talking about Micros, vitamins, minerals, polyphenols, and everything else. So I'm just talking about as an energy substrate to be into this, into the cell, to make ATP and into the Mitochondria. Okay, so we're talking about carbs and fat mainly. Okay, so glucose, fatty acids. So what do we want from this glucose and fatty acids to make this ATP in the Mitochondria? We're talking right now. Okay, what do we want from that? Glucose and fat. Do you remember? No. Okay. We don't want everything. There's no nutrients we want, there's nothing in there to get to the Mitochondria and the Kreb cycle we all were looking for from it is electrons. That's it. Bottom line. We just want the electrons from that food. Okay. From that glucose, from that fatty acid and does the mitochondria care what delivered it? What? Where do these electrons come from? Does it care? Nope. All the Mitochondria cares about is to get enough of these electrons to keep the cell alive and functioning. So everything in this style, everything we do, protein synthesis, everything requires ATP. Bottom line, root cause. Okay? So if we have dysfunctional Mitochondria that I've always talked about, we know that is dysfunctional. Mitochondria is the root cause of why we die. Okay? Basically, bottom line, unless an accident takes us out and we chronic illnesses, inflammation, everything comes from lack of ATP production, Alzheimer's, dementia, depression, everything comes from this. And so as we talk about this, we just want to keep our discussion. We want to keep these couple of things about muscle loss, muscle performance and rebuild recovery.

Eric: 07:50 Keep these three principles in mind. ATP production in the CYTOPLASM. Okay. That's glucose dependent. Carbohydrate dependent. Okay. You don't need oxygen. Number two, ATP production in the Mitochondria. This is where most of our energy comes from. That's a electron dependent, okay? From the fuel source and as oxygen dependent. Then number three is we talked protein, amino acids for protein synthesis, repair build. So bottom you guys, and everybody knows if I sound passionate about this, I am. Why? Because I researched the heck out of this and we know that I have stacks of files all over this place about energy performance, muscle performance, protein synthesis, and Eugene McGee. The list just goes on. And so, you know, I can have all this research, which I do all right? And I've listened to every side of the story. You know, there's always hanging, I can get people on this podcast or disagree with me. Okay? Um, but I can believe whoever I want, but I truly don't know until what do I do? I put it to the task and that's what I do. And this way I know for myself and that's why I put myself through all these self experiments trying to figure it all out besides the knowledge which I've attained. And I keep obtaining a funny, you say, Hey, all right, is this really work? Well, what's it do it. So basically that's where I'm at.

Chad: 09:20 So how does, so how does this relate to why a lot of people, uh, think maybe you can't build muscle on keto? Does that, does that make sense? I'm trying to get at why, uh, why would somebody who maybe is a bodybuilder or wants to gain a lot of muscle, but our kin is considering keto, why would they start to think, well, maybe that's not the best for muscle building.

Eric: 09:47 Bottom line is what, what you need to create muscle. How much protein? Okay. Protein, amino acids. Okay. Branch chain amino acids. Everybody knows about these. All right? There's certain proteins that are really big on protein synthesis. Especially we're talking about muscle cell. Okay. Mussel Shell, we covering muscle cell building, all right? And all everybody knows, you know, we, we get down to the basics. The biggest, you know, kicker of it all is Loosing basically. Okay. Um, and a lot of people feel because you're on a keto, you're not getting enough protein. All right? You're not getting enough. Those amino acids, which are the main ones. And leucine, you've got your branch chain amino acid, but basically in leucine is the most anabolic promoted besides we're not getting into hormones and testosterone and growth hormones. And I can get an IGF one, but I'm trying to keep it simple. Um, basically it, it's the protein issue and then they add in like, oh, there's a little, there's not enough glycogen to kicking the insulin, which is the IGF factor. One acts like insulin to kick in some, uh, some growth. Okay. So what I've had to do over the, over the, uh, you know, over the years I, I said, okay, I'm going to test this out. And then there's research, you know, new cool part about, you know, and I, I read this study a long time ago. I think it was done in 1988 if I remember. And that's in my first studies that I looked at, I was trying to find protein synthesis and based about leucine, and it's a study, if I remember right, there's like 13 subjects than the infused Beta hydroxy butyrate molecule in, in one group. And then a salient solution and the other group to see, you know, on I special muscle sparing and, and, and, and muscle growth in protein synthesis. And so, and if you really do oxidize leucine, okay, all right. Because you know, they're saying with the Beta and with the Ketosis, you're not over doing your protein cause there's that fear of Gluconeogenesis, which we'll talk about later. But anyway, so what the test did, they had 1313 subjects. They infuse BHP and then they didn't say anything solution in the rest and they ended up with 30% okay. Decrease of oxidation of the leucine. So didn't oxide 30% last. Okay. And so that, that's, that's huge. And then even on the other side of it, to have Lucy and incorporate it into the muscle cell increased by 10% average. So this is about an average 3% over the 13 10%. So we know leucine is an essential amino acid, as I talked about. And it's, it's really there for protein synthesis, repair and rebuilding. And so we move from this research now is back in the late eighties that the Beta hydroxy beauty molecule decreased the oxidation, that breakdown of Leucine, which you don't want and promotes the protein synthesis of the muscle with Lucene.

Eric: 12:41 So really that's, that's been pretty, you know, you know it. And that was interesting when I found it years ago. And then anyway, but it still said, hey, how do I put this to the test? Okay? So what I did, and a lot of people have heard, but I did it mainly to prove, and I, people watching me and I, you know, I, you know, basically told people what I'm doing. I really wanted to put that muscle loss to the test as far as the only reason you lose muscles, you think the protein is going to be used to produce ATP. Okay. So why would the body take muscle tissue? All right. Break it down through gluconeogenesis. The amino acids in which, by the way, remember leucine and lysine to me, acids can't be robbed to be used for Gluconeogenesis to make glucose. All right? The main ones are Alanine, including me. All right, so right there you're not going to lose leucine because I am not getting enough protein. So my body's going to take the protein quicker neogenesis and make glucose from it. All right? So bottom line is what are you producing your ATP with? All right, remember, fat fatty acids and we got glucose. Carbohydrates. All right? So I did that. Uh, one of the tests I did a seven day fasting to say, hey, how do I lose two? I lose muscle tissue. And then I did a five day hit, two of them on the same thing to see if I'm going to drastically lose muscle mass because everybody says if you, you fast and you work out really hard, we call the anabolic stimulus, which is real critical, you know, to be in Ketosis and Beta to actually moves the muscles and break them down and create anabolic stimulus by, by, by regrow.

Eric: 14:26 So what I did on that seven day fast, I worked out a hit every day really hard. I wanted to exhaust all my glycogen. Okay? I wanted a member. I have no fatty acids coming in. I have no carbs coming in. I have no sub straights that are coming in. I only have what stored on my body. Okay? So fatty acids are stored. I have some glycogen, but I worked out hard enough to deplete my glycogen to say, okay, cool. I kitchen, you're depleted. All right, where are you going to go? Where are you going to go to get some glucose? Cause we do need glucose. I'm not anti glucose. We have to have a baseline use of glucose for the brain. You know, portions of it, you know, red blood cells need at testes needed kidney medula needs it, et cetera. So we do have to have a certain amount of glucose. So when you strip that stored glycogen, remember, you know we got 400 new liver, like 1400 in the muscle grams. All right? From working out, I am using that in a different energy pathway. Which member? I talked about the first two pathways, the one in the cell cytoplasm, okay. That does not need, doesn't, it does not need, um, uh, uh, oxygen of course, because I'm going into a high intensity type of workout. All right? It's, but it does need glucose, which is the glycogen that I have stored there. All right? And the muscle. And so basically what's happening is I'm going to deplete all that glycogen and say, all right, liver, where are you going to get me more glucose? Are you going to go for the muscle tissue, the protein amino acids to break it down for Gluco? Or are you going to find another source? So, and I knew the other sources would be lactate glycerol, which is the backbone of your triglyceride when you, when I'm using fats as a fuel that glycerol comes off. So that can be used for Gluconeogenesis to create glucose. All right? And then he also had Piru vate and some other sources, and the two amino acids Alanine and glutamine can be broken down for glucose. All right, so bottom line, I'll make this fast. I sorry. But I wanted to prove that I would not leave, lose lean muscle mass. And what happened. I did a Dexa the day before and I got my lean muscle tissue, measured out my fat percentage, and then I trained every day glycogen hit hard, hard, hard, hard fasting. Then I ended with that spartan, which really crushed the glycogen. And of course I lost, uh, lost water during that time, which you do.

Eric: 17:00 Um, obviously when your insulin drops, your, your kidneys will excrete, excrete water. But anyway, at the end, I didn't do the decks of the day after I refueled for, uh, just a couple of days. And then I went back and even I mentioned this before, the guide, the Dexa, the owns it. I said he was real curious to see what happened. I ended up gaining 5.5 pounds of muscle. So I'm like, okay, wow. Even I'm like, anybody hearing this be like, no, no, that's impossible. Which I said, okay, let's granted my glycogen was depleted. And what happens when you deplete your glycogen? You lose water. Remember when you store glycogen that you know 1400 grams and that's in the muscle, 400 that if you add all that up, it's three to four grams per gram of glycogen. So you have water goes with glycogen when you store it. So you can have, if I work my calories out, I'm sure you know, 400 grand, 1400 total grams, you know, uh, they'd probably come out to about 12 pounds of water. So that's what I'm storing with that glycogen. That's why when we fast and you're going to die, you lose water because your glycogen is being depleted and you losing the water from that. Okay. So obviously I said, okay, I lost water. Then when I really feel I just, my sales is the glycogen came back and guess what came with it? Water. And so at that, all right, that's where showing so much gain of tissue because those muscles filled back up with glycogen and that counts toward muscle tissue. So it filled back up glycogen and water. And I ended up with that 5.5 so I said, Nah, that doesn't sound right. So let me wait three weeks and get everything back to homeostasis and I'll go back in and see what my muscle loss or gain was. Still was two pounds to the game and that's f fast if seven days of just pouring it on. So anyway, that one I did. So I gained muscle. I did another five day, uh, uh, workout, fasted hit every day. And I, this one I tested the day before and the day of, I ended my fast. So no refueling at all. I drank the same water every day. Um, basically I said, okay, where am I going to be on this one? I, I lost a quarter of a pound of muscle in five days. That was it. And I worked out hard. And so I said, okay, I'm really baffled by this. I'm not losing, you know, a muscle. I'm not taking my protein and make an ATP from it. So where am I getting my ATP and these fast fatty acids, ketones, Beta, where am I getting the, where am I getting my Lucine? It's being recycled. Remember if we're in autophagy in that fast. So all those unfolded proteins that need to be cleaned up. Guess what happens to fancy autophagy breaks that down in a re actually cycles your amino acids you have Loosing there actually recycles that. So I do have immuno acids for protein synthesis. Okay. And also, you know, your human growth hormone kicks in when you're fasting. Uh, there's a lot of things that kick in as far as muscle grow. So it was just really, and I've done it, I've done more tasks, trust me, I've got them all over. But these are all DEXA and, and I'll go to bat with anybody in regard to muscle loss because you know, it's, it's all about what your mitochondria going to use to make that ATP energy to provide you with energy. Is it going to take protein or in our, it's going to take the fatty acids is going to take those Beta hydroxy butyrate molecules, which it loves.

Eric: 20:53 The brain loves it. You're, you're not losing all that glucose and glycogen because your, your brain's going to take 70% is going to go with the Beta for fuel and your muscles, censure and Ketosis. Then you're already going to be coming. Fatty acid adapted to use as energy. So the Mitochondria says, Hey I am, I have fatty acids to use, I have Beta to use. I don't need to go in and rob your amino acids from your muscle. And, and people don't, you know, a lot of people forget when, when the body does Gluconeogenesis, when it's making glucose, okay? Every day, no matter what baseline, your body's always has a little bit of gluconeogenesis going to make sure there's enough glucose. Always baseline, always. Okay? But the body says, Hey, I'm not going to do it unless it's necessary to create the fuel. Because in Gluconeogenesis, when you take a lactate, cause obviously I'm using lactate a lot as as a glucose, a substitute for glycogen. When I'm in fasting mode cause I'm training and creating some of that lactate that's coming from the glycogen I have stored. But in bottom line, when you, when you think about it, Gluconeogenesis, it takes a lot of energy because when you break down glucose in the cell from glycolysis to make ATP, you breaking down, it doesn't require energy as much. You get to ATP to the positive, but in Gluconeogenesis, in the liver, you have to reverse that 10 step procedure, breaking down glucose to Piper Bay. You have to reverse those steps. So now you're building and, and we're, we're building up, you take ATP. So the liver has to give up six ATP to get you, you know, on Gluconeogenesis and get you to ATP. So there's a loss of four. So the body saying, hey, if I don't need to do this, I'm not going to do this, but look on your agenda is not bad.

Eric: 22:55 It's a good thing because we do need glucose. Okay. But as I'm in, in our discussion, I'm saying you're, you're, your body's not going to throw those proteins out. I mean, even if you excess proteins, it's going to say, hey, I'll just convert this anyway and stored as glycogen. Okay. Uh, and all, and so if you're in a deficit, it's going to say, Hey, I've got other energy sources. I don't take your amino acids and by if I have to your protein. So, so those are, you know, and I've done other tests. I just finished one that, you know, that five day one another fast. And I did a hit every day, which I really pushed the cardio. I did a bike treadmill workout. I did a hit throw down. I mean I totally every day no recovery and I didn't do a Dexa. I just didn't measurement. And I did five days and I measured my arms, my chest, my waist, everything. And that's one, a member I'm monitored all my water intake outtake just to say, all right, how much of this is water loss? All right. And I maintained exactly, you know, homeostasis on my water and I actually lost no size at all. No size at all. So yeah.

Chad: 24:05 Interesting. So, um, so obviously we're, we're saying there, it's definitely possible to build muscle on keto. Um, in fact it might be a very efficient way to build muscle, um, ending on how you're, depending on how your, um, training, right? And that happens. A couple of factors. So we're going to talk a little bit about, um, training habits and going longer, going faster, becoming stronger. We're going to get to some of that. Before we do that, I want to talk about biostak and I always try to talk about, I know biostak kind of puts its fingers in every little process of ketosis and all of that kind of stuff. So I'm gonna put you on the spot a little bit and just kind of ask you just briefly, uh, you know, the, the um, what biostak provides our body, how does it interact or participate in this process of muscle building? Um, or you know, allowing ATP to be utilized.

Eric: 25:03 Everything coming from the ATP production from the Mitochondria and we need the cleanest fuel, you to get those electrons front from. The only thing that it does say, I'll take it from Beta hydroxybutyrate molecule cause we had talked about fats and in glucose providing electrons. But when it does come from Bhb Beta, all right, you get a cleaner fuel source. So you actually, when it hits that the electrons hit that electron transport chain to go down that protein gradient and push protons, protons up to actually even get to the production of ATP. We have a cleaner fuel burn basically, so we have less electrons leaking out to cause those free radicals. Okay, and so bottom line, you know, if we can protect the mitochondria from free radical damage, obviously we're going to produce more ATP. All right? The more ATP you getting produced, the better protein synthesis that you're going to get, all right? Because remember those, those free radicals love to go out into the cell and when you're folding proteins to make proteins for that cellular muscle repair it, those free radicals will attack the proteins and that's coming from your DNA, these proteins from the RNA there being expressed and say, Hey, let's repair the tissue. This is protein synthesis. All right? Those free radicals want to go out into stop that. It'll go into your cellular membrane, Lipid peroxidation in, it'll go into your nucleus and mess up your DNA that's going to express those genes to make that protein to repair that muscle bottom line. It's all about ATP. And that's why I, that's why I this stack, cause I had to get to the root cause in your Mitochondria to protect your ATP production. And actually create more. Yeah, that helped. A bottom, I'm getting to the root to the roots of this.

Chad: 26:59 I love that. I love that I've started to recognize is I just see people talking about biostak online and some of the emails and questions that we get. I love that people are starting to call it the stack. I think that's so cool. The stack,

Eric: 27:14 and this is going in the background that you don't even feel, but you will eventually cause longevity, aging, wrinkling, skin, energy. You do it. This is a correction. It's actually a prevention too. So you actually start to reap the benefits. Uh, when you're a three year, four year keto like me, you know, I am more fat adapted. I can take those fatty acids and the Beta and I can, I can hit these hits harder than anybody because my, it's all about cellular adaptation. I can adapt by using this fuel okay. At a higher intensity because I'm cellular adapted to do it. And that's why people sometimes give up on keto cause they're like, ah, the first month is so hard. I have no energy and um, I'm fatigued and et Cetera is because you're not adapted to using beta and the fatty acids as your fuel source. Okay. That's why it takes, you know, I, I hate to say it. Yeah, you've been keto. How long now you new been wow. Year over a year and a half. And it's amazing how it just gets better. I mean, and it's amazing how your body adapts. So that's what I tell people. Just, Hey, I'm at this for years and it's amazing. You know, when I see the adaptation take place and that's why I don't like studies cause most studies are 30 days. Most studies are two weeks and now let's take bay and let's take protein synthesis and compare it. And Baba, Nah, these people aren't fat adapted. These athletes aren't really beta and fatty acid adapted as an energy source. I mean, they're not utilizing lactaid how they could a pirate movie. I mean the glycerol coming off your backbone from, from burning your fatty acids. All this takes time. I mean, and it's exciting because it's all about ATP,

Chad: 29:03 hinted at a few things and we're going to jump onto that. But I love this idea of making sure that we're protecting ourselves from free radical damage and obviously biostak is the key to that regular use of in this thing. This is something that runs in the background that keeps everything going. Um, you know, and so people should check out biostak.com if they haven't and definitely give it a go and, and get, you know, make sure that we're protecting our, sell your membranes, make sure that we're taking care of those, that free radical damage through this. This is like you said, this is a repair kit really. We've done a lot of damage to ourselves and as you think about building muscle, as you think about endurance and what we're going to, you know, the things coming up, biostak is just, is just a very essential part of all of that process. So through biostak.com check it out, read all about it, get a bottle for yourself, see how good you can feel. And, uh, and let's do that together. So let's move on to this. So, um, endurance, talk a little bit about endurance. So insurance is obviously a key too. If you're, if you're serious about muscle building, um, it is a key to, to muscle building. The longer you can go or opportunity you have for building, breaking down and built rebuilding muscle. Yeah. So, uh, so obviously, I mean, I already know the answer to this, it's rhetorical, but do we have more endurance on keto?

Eric: 30:37 Yes. And, and, and I have all the tea now, all the research and the studies and clinical trials on that. And it's out there, uh, until you experience it yourself. I like, I have and I've done the iron man completely. keto. Everything I do is in, as far as training, I do it in a fasted state. I don't remember the last time I trained with any previous glucose or Annie Energy substrates before my training on my workouts. Everything is fasted because I'm relying upon my own indigenous energy, which is the Beta. Okay. And fatty acids. And of course a little glucose thrown in there from my glycogen. All right. And, and that's what's so keen is when you know everybody, all these other athletes, I'm not, you know, they're, they're great, they're fantastic. They can perform, but they have to maintain that higher glycogen glucose inputs to maintain that constant feeding to get the ATP. Alright, shall member glucose goes in the Mitochondria. All right? Makes ATP, but fatty acids in Beta makes more ATP and it's more cleaner. The only thing you're going to beat me on, you think you're gonna beat me on is in that short hit where it just relying on the Phospho creatine, which is that ATP that's already in your sale ready to fire or anaerobic glycolysis, which is training that glycogen into the pie rate into lactate. Okay. So, but I challenge people on that because I'd done all the lactate studies and everything else and I can prove that I can hit that higher intensity without having to have that glucose, carbohydrate input. Cause I can take lactates and I can take my glycerol and I can take my fatty acids and create at a higher intensity just because I'm more fat adapted. And people build muscle on keto and they're like, wow, I'm not even taking the protein that I used to take in. I used to take in 150-160 grams. Now I'm down to 90 and I'm building, you're utilizing it more, especially in endurance fatty acids. I got 60,000 calories stored on me. So if my, if my muscles, my muscles are show adapted their burning fatty acids. And usually Beta takes a little lot longer to get going Beta into your muscles because you're going to be fat adapted. So the brain takes most of your beta. But I'm using more beta now in my, um, uh, muscle tissue, which I know because I don't have the high numbers, the millimoles that I used to, I'm 0.5 to 0.7 and that meaning, that's because I'm utilizing the Beta. My brain is taking it and obviously my muscles are too now. So, and that's why you can go and endurance I, you know, I, I challenge you to do that. So, cool.

Chad: 33:21 What about faster? Um, hopefully I'm going to switch now for training for events or you know, that kind of stuff. Speed is, is, uh, is huge and there's a, there's a big correlation between building muscle and going faster. Yes. Uh, so talk a little bit about that and

Eric: 33:38 that's the hiit. Okay. And that's in hit and anything going faster, we're going to jump into, you know, into the cellular now the cytoplasm for that ATP production. So we have that Phospho creatine pathway, which is ATP already there on standby. All right? So if you move your arms, you're fast or you do a five second, ten second, you're going to grab that ATP that's already there. All right? It doesn't take oxygen. It doesn't take glucose. It's already there. Ready to be stripped of that phosphate to make ADP. All right? And then go at it again. It'll grab some creatine phosphate nearby and make that ATP again. That runs out. Then you're going to go anaerobic, which is glycogen being produced. You know, Chi roommate to lactate and then we have the Cori cycle that you actually run that to the liver, which recreates it back to Pirate Bay to glucose back to the cell to give you energy. I that's what I've proven over and over is how intense can you go on keto and all these, these, these experiments I do is all about raising the intensity. But without taking in any extra carb feeding, carb loading, I'm still at 40 carbs a day or less. And I can actually produce the same as if I were taking two, 300 carbs a day. Okay. And that's, and that's what's exciting because you can utilize the lactate shuttle, which also can go into the Mitochondria and I won't go into all that science cause we did a podcast on him, but you're utilizing these other fuel sources of the cholesterol, the lactate in the pie roommates and to be that quick energy source in the anaerobic glycolysis. [inaudible]. Okay. And I really believe my mitochondria now is getting involved cause normally you don't even in a high intensity, but I really believe the intramuscular fat is being utilized at a higher intensity now cause I can hold that 85 95% longer than I ever could. And that's a good sign because you're using a fuel to do that. So it takes a lot, a lot of quick to be able to handle that. So yeah. And that's what my experiments or yeah.

Chad: 35:41 Yeah. We've already talked quite a bit about getting stronger. Um, is there anything additional that you want to say about that quickly just to understand? I mean I know a muscle fatigue is, is a big thing for me when I work out. And I definitely notice a large, a huge difference in my muscle fatigue when, when working out and, and you know that's, that's really fun to watch, get stronger that way

Eric: 36:09 it comes down to everything I teach and preaches. It comes all down to cellular adaptation. You get that sale adapted to use the energy source energy, ATP production. And when you muscle fatigue that and you train it besides just my whole key of head is creating w my mitochondria. So the more Mitochondria having that sale, you could have hundreds to thousands of Mitochondria hearts and the brain's got lots of Mitochondria cause those are so, you know, Eh, energy needed you, you have to. But what's more exciting is when you do this hip, you run that lactate, you're actually can double your mitochondria. So more Mitochondria, more ADP, it's spread out through all those electrotransport change, which means no more a electron backup. So you have less electron leakage, which is promoting free radical damage. So anyway, it's all about adapting. So that's why I train at these high intensities and I teach it is because I can get you adapted to burning uh, the, the, the right fuel for that power output. It's all about power output and it's all about adaptation. So I, and I've seen you, you before, you couldn't stick with that, that, that muscle fatiguing that work out for 15, 16 minutes. Then as your body adapts and you change it up, you get BDNF and other factors involved there. Okay. I'm going to go into detail. Yeah. Your cells adapt to it and they react to it. So that's what's exciting about it.

Chad: 37:43 Yeah. And I feel like, I mean I definitely feel like I have an edge. I, I attend, um, filled house fitness classes regularly and I feel like I, I definitely have, um, an endurance that is not many have there, I'm not saying that I'm necessarily stronger or faster than any of them, but I definitely have, uh, an endurance and a strengthening, um, kind of secret weapon. I feel like,

Eric: 38:11 well, because you're not relying on, most people are reliant on that glucose there have so much and just those certain amount of glycogen to produce it, that high intensity, the dietary glucose, not, it's not going to happen. It's not fast enough. It's going to take that glycogen. So you're actually using other substrates to produce it at a high intensity. And you know, one of the things that's amazing about all this, and I think when I, when I coach keto with people with Keto, when you hear the negatives, the misinformation, you mentally knock yourself out and in a good example and you, you're the, you're the mindset mentor. Okay. And this is what you know, but, and you've experienced it. And just a quick thing is when my last five day fast, I was on my fifth day, um, and I was at the gym and I'm cranking this throw down, take 17 minutes, it's nonstop pull up. I mean it just goes through the whole very muscle fatigue in workout, rope pull. And it's fast, fast and furious. Hard as I can go. And I literally was into it the second round and I was talking myself out. Like, all right, this is my fifth day of fast. I'm hungry, I have no energy, I don't want to do this, I'm hurting. And I literally hit to the bar dips and I do 20, you know, it's part of the routine part. Throwdown got to do 20 bar dips each round and then push ups. And it's just brutal. A guy stopped me as I got on the Bar dip and I had my headphones in. I and I don't want to be stopped because I'm on, I'm on the clock, I'm on heart rate. And I go, yeah, yeah, yeah. And he goes, hey. He goes, I've been watching you. What? What are you doing? And I said, ah, it's just a throw down, work out. It's very intense. He goes, yeah, I could tell it's intense, but I'm amazed at what you're doing. And just those words. I said, hey, thanks. And I put my headphones back in those next two rounds. I flew through chad and I'm like, he changed my whole mental outlook on it. So now I know he's watching and I performed and it all, I didn't even think about the pain after that. So it's, and you know, it's so placebo, so mental. And I think people with keto, they hear the negative and they're like, ah, I haven't eaten. I don't have any glucose. I don't have any carbs. And I, I think it's a lot of, it's so mental. Any race ain't no. I've always been about the mental game anyway. So anyway, that's just a quick point mentally.

Chad: 40:40 So let's, um, lastly, let's just end on protein, if that's okay. And how much protein should people be getting even on keto and how much does that affect their ability to build muscle in keto, in Ketosis and,

Eric: 40:56 yeah, and that, that's the key. And everybody talks about how much protein and, and I, I been down, you know, I do about 90 grams a day. Night, 90 to a hundred for me, not, I don't over, I'm not saying don't overdo it. I don't get knocked out acute, you know, ketosis. If I go 130 grams, um, just remember I'm, I'm at a certain age that I'm adjusting my protein because I don't really want to push. Remember we talked about this and mentor, uh, you know, yet you have the hypothalamus pushing the HGH and gets the pituitary gland and it pushes it down to the, um, to the liver. And then you got IGF one factor, which is anabolic. We have [inaudible]. So I don't overdo my protein because I'm at an age where I can, I can really feed, you know, uh, like cancer. So I'm real careful. But I normally the rate, most people they run and like 0.6 grams per pound, maybe two, one gram per pound. Um, but I did that one test I did and I had others that were challenging me on it to a muscle growth and repair. And I did 45 grams a day and I did that for like two, uh, two months actually. And I lost nothing. Even with all the training I do, I didn't lose anything with 45 and that's like 0.3 grams per, per, per pound. So basically in that range, um, uh, I, I don't fear over doing it just because, you know, that's how keto gets a bad eye, a little bit of bad rap thing.

Eric: 42:25 Oh, you're, you're gonna turn that protein into Glucose neogenesis and the glucose, as we talked about, no, the body will go for the fatty acids. You'll go for glucose, you know, to make that ATP. Um, and, and Leucine, I will say leucine is your big anabolic as far as protein synthesis. Um, you know, remember we got anabolic versus catabolic. So, you know, we're, we're building and we're breaking down. So I, you know, if you're building a, I would definitely keep your protein level up there, even up towards, you know, one gram and I get knocked out of Ketosis if I, I've tested it all out. If I go to 160 grams and my, my ketosis is gone and it discourages me cause I think, hey, but you know, I'm, I'm older so I'm not utilizing the protein probably that I should. And My glycogen storage is high because of my glycerol and lactate that I keep creating. So it doesn't need it for, for the glycogen. It just creates glucose and it ends up knocking me out. It's not being stored is quite good. June. So yeah, that's it. I mean, protein, I'm not against protein, not at all, but keto isn't anti protein, you know, and we're not anti carbs. Okay. I get enough carbs in my vegetables to match anybody. I just not getting that extra crappy garbs unnecessary carbs and debt. We're all getting enough protein. I mean, you, you obviously feel you're getting enough protein, right? You don't have any issues. No, not at all covered. We got those three areas covered. Okay. Great.

Chad: 43:51 Well, thanks so much for biohacking with us today. All right, I appreciate it. And uh, I want to thank all of you for joining us on this quest for optimal fitness. If you're ready to begin your own journey and live your life and Ketosis, be sure to check out biofitcoaching.com or biofit coaching on Instagram. That handle is @keto.biohacker also, don't forget we have a session of fasted state coming up in April, so the dates for our next fasted state session, our April 16th through the 19th and A. Yes, we're celebrating Eric's birthday for this one. I'm going to keep harping on that just because I know how much you don't like birthdays there. Uh, but yeah, go ahead.

Eric: 44:34 That's my chronological birthday. Okay. That's not my biological birthday. Just remember that. All right. That's my 63 year old chronological birthday. All right, this is a great way to sell because I don't celebrate birthdays, but this will be fun. This will actually be a person she look forward to. Cool.

Chad: 44:53 Go to biofitcoaching.com/fast. Um, again, that, that, that web address is biofitcoaching.com/fast get in with this group. We only take 20 people and uh, it's filling up fast. So go there. Get signed up fast with us the 16th through the 19th of April. Um, and finally, if the Po, if this podcast has entertained you at all, helped you in any way, please go to iTunes or wherever you get your podcast. Leave us a five star rating and a glowing review so that we can reach more people, continue to build this community. Finally, the greatest compliment that you can give us is sharing this podcast with your friends and family, especially if you don't know how to talk to them about keto. Just send them to us. We will talk their ears off and a, until next time, stay keto.